Apr 24, 2023
Bryan Hoskins Phd. PE. Is a professor at Oklahoma State Universityin the Fire Protection and Safety Engineering Technology program.Topics covered in this episode are myths about evacuation,performance based design, and understanding the intent of codes andstandards.
Transcript:
00:02.86
firecodetech
Well hello Bryan welcome to the firecode Tech podcast. Thanks forcoming on the show. Thank you because my pleasure. Awesome.
00:07.56
Bryan Hoskins
Thank you guys My pleasure. Glad to be here.
00:13.66
firecodetech
Well I always like to get these things started with talking abouthow you found fire and life safety as a career path.
00:22.41
Bryan Hoskins
Well my stories rather interesting I'll give you the short versionhere because I go on for a long time on this but it's also one Ithink it's fairly typical in fire protection. Um, and that wellthere are some people who know about fire protection early on.
00:38.87
Bryan Hoskins
I didn't actually discover it until after I was already in college.So I grew up in the San Francisco bay area um and after my junioryear. My I have a twin brother so him and I convince our parents totake us on a three week 14 school tour. Um, where we hit schoolsthroughout the entire country. Um that three week tour though waslet's say we flew in and out of Nashville and went everywhere fromFlorida to Massachusetts and through the midwest and everythingelse. It was a very busy few weeks there. Um. But I know I want todo engineering because I like enjoyed math and science and mysenior yearr in high school I had an advanced chemistry electivewhere well so a prevviewing wifi protection's a good decision. Mygroup everything we did to get to choose their own experiments.Every one of mine groups except for one involves stuff exploding orflames or something else. Another elective I had in high schoolthat I start out and enjoyed was psychology. So what do you do withchemistry fire. And psychology. Well it was obvious then lookingback that yes fire protection special life safety was the route Iwas intended to go but I know I did existed. We happened to stop atthe University Of Maryland
01:57.15
firecodetech
Are.
02:08.80
firecodetech
Wow.
02:11.43
Bryan Hoskins
Because my brother was he's the one who actually put Maryland onthe list. Um, he really wanted to see it because he was going intoaerospace engineering specifically astro there some opportunitiesthere that he didn't that weren't available elsewhere so he put iton the list.
02:27.82
Bryan Hoskins
And while we had agreed that neither one of us was going to makethe other one decide where they had to go to school. Um, we stillend up applying to a lot of the same school so Maryland for meadding it on was something of well this way I mean I did enjoy thecampus and if it was something that i. Oh wasn't necessarily a badone and he really wanted to go there so I put an application butwe'd agreed we weren't going to decide based on what the 1 did andthen found out about an opportunity I got at Meland that I didn'thave anywhere else which was I got accepted in to which I didn'teven know this program applied when. Had even applied there butthey had what's called the gemstone program which was a 4 yearinterdisciplinary team research undergraduate team research projectin science technology and society and that really appealed to me soit's okay, I'll go to Maryland still no clue that fire protectionexists. Um. I also knew I didn't know enough about the engineeringfield. So I went in undecided engineering and then it oh and I tookmy time to go and look around at the different majors. Um I know Ididn't want to do electrical or computer because that wasn'tsomething that necessarily appealed to me. But. What's thedifference mechanical civil aerospace and oh this is fireprotectionction 1 let me look at that as well. Um, and as I startedto look at it. Some of the big selling points to me. Obviously as Isaid the okay like fire flames in that chemistry classpsychology.
04:01.43
Bryan Hoskins
Really fits but 1 of the other big selling points on it to me andthis is something that's also true of our program at Osu becauseMaryland program was founded by an osu alum but when I went tomechanical engineering to talk to them. It was as if I was anumber. As I was just sitting there. The advisor said I mean what'sthe best way to put it later on though I was at an awards banquet afew years later that advisor was hinting out the wordss formechanical engineering and read off a name and it see well I guesshe's not here. She then walked up and so it was such an I mean Ihad the impression was a number thing and when one of your topstudents is getting awards you don't even know if they're a malestudent or a female student and he was the one who is advisingeveryone. Um. And there was that you're just a number meanwhilewith fire protection when I went there I remember meeting with theprogram head on a Friday afternoon and we had a conversationsomeone like this one here where it was well let me know whatyou're interested in. Why were you considering this. Fridayafternoon I got there like 4 we talked until about six o'clock sothe facts there's a faculty member willing to stay talk to me aboutthe program for a few hours on a Friday afternoon. Um, and there'sreally that sense of family and community and fire protection whichis something that I thought.
05:20.74
firecodetech
Wow.
05:36.68
Bryan Hoskins
Yes, This is a good fit for me so curriculume lines up then oh theatmosphere lines up and that's how I got into fire protection. So alot of sort of chances If This hadn't happened that hadn't happenedwouldn't be here but I'm very glad that I found it because it is a.Probably the perfect fit for me.
05:55.89
firecodetech
Wow, That's awesome means some really neat stuff there in thatfirst just your background piece talking about you know yourinterests at an early age in chemistry and and fire and then howthat like that sense of family and.
06:05.54
Bryan Hoskins
With him.
06:12.16
firecodetech
In fire and life safety which is something I've always seen peoplekind of band together because of the just the nature of it and yeahI didn't know that about the okay state being founded by a Marylandlum either that kind of blows my mind because of the tensionsbetween the 2 Oh yeah, yeah.
06:21.28
Bryan Hoskins
Me want a way around oh prof Brian who founded the program atMaryland Graduate from Osu.
06:30.64
firecodetech
Oh I didn't realize that Wow that's very interesting, Veryinteresting. Awesome Well to give the listeners a little bit morecontext Would you speak a little bit about your professional rolesand.
06:33.80
Bryan Hoskins
Death.
06:50.45
firecodetech
Kind of positions that you've held and and how that work hascolored your context now as a professor.
06:55.34
Bryan Hoskins
Yeah, so in this I'll say 1 thing that I always encourage all ofour students do and that's readily offered oh is gettinginternships so I'll start with some of the internships I had andhow that sort of shaped. So my career decisions going forward. Sofirst internship it was right after I had decided I was going to dofire protection because that was my sophom*ore year summer afterSophom*ore year I had had 1 fire protection class at that point sonot too much in it. But oh. Was going to be home for the summer andwanted to have a meaningful experience and oh from that talk toprofessor milkke um, at Maryland that spring of the okay I'm goinghome for this I'm going be home for spring break then home for thesummer. Um, I said before I grew up in the San Francisco bay areaso the opposite coast of the country and it was so what options dowe have out there. Um and he gave me context for 2 different alumsthat were in the bay area I met with both of them over springbreak. Um. And then that led to a job offer from Jensen Hughes oractually at the time it was just cues. Um, because they had somemajor projects going on that summer where it was smoke control Ihad never had a smoke control class but they needed someone.
08:26.86
Bryan Hoskins
To climb up ladders and make sure dampers had closed um to gothrough and just do a lot of that type of work which okay, youdon't need much in terms of classes and other things to be workingon those projects. Um. And because how the schedule went in themonth of July I got four days off Sunday the 1st july although thatone almost didn't happen and then two of the other sundays um, andeach day we were working again at the first job site about 9 am mleaving the last one about midnight one a m. Um, then I had to gethome and rinse strike cycle repeat for the entire month. Um, now Iwas being paid over time for all those extra hours. So it was avery lucrative summer but what I really took away from that 1 um,was just that value of the hands on experience. Because never hadsmoke control but when I took smoke control later on elderly. Okay,this makes a lot more sense because I've seen it done it andunderstand what things are and even my class sits today I make surewhen talk about smoke control. Okay when we're talking about thespecial inspector process. Well I was there as the guy was doingit. So here's what people do when they do this rather than as wellI read about in a book. Um, but actually having that intimateknowledge there. Um I also while in school um spent a year. Wellnot quite a year because it was supposed to start.
10:02.91
Bryan Hoskins
In the fall of the year when there was the anthrax scare in thecapol. So my position got delayed starting a little bit becausethat same office was dealing with all of that so they couldn'tquite take on a student at the start of the semester. Um, but I wasworking with the congressional office of compliance and that wasalso a very. Eyeopening experience because dealing with the libraryof congress buildings dealing with congressional office buildings.There are I mean I got to see an actual halon system while I wasthere which is something that isn't very common. But there was alot of understanding of from that sort of hj perspective. How doyou do things especially in that environment where there's codecompliance but you can't make that building code. Compliant. So howdo you have to sort of analyze the hazards and while we weren'tdoing official performance-based design type of approach. It wasthat same process of understanding. Okay, what are the hazardswhat's the intent of the code. How can we make these buildings asituation safe. Enough for oh people to be in the building I wasactually the first ever intern that they had hired um and it was awonderful experience just to see it from that perspective otherpositions I've had before getting into academia.
11:32.62
Bryan Hoskins
Um I spent a year working for Europe um out there San Franciscooffice doing primarily life safety plan review which again, that'sa lot of the okay so how is it that you go about applying things.To the real world. Plus it also helps I think when I have studentsof well why are you giving us this I had that assigned to me in myfirst six weeks on the job. You're gonna be graduating soon if theyhanded it to me. They can hand it to you. So let's get you readyfor those things. Um. And again seeing sort of that overallhierarchy of how everything fits together and works together andyou have in that office a lot of different trades plus also a lotof the workouts doing with more performance-based design and soreally diving into again that sort of. Here's the intent of thecode. How can we make sure that our building meets the intent ofthe code even if we can't quite meet the letter of it. Um, and thenthe other position I had before oh coming to Osu was working forthe national instituteive standards and technology. Nist in thefire research area. Um, and that was a really meaningful experiencein that I got to see just when you're trying to look at the problemfinding identify. Okay.
13:06.58
Bryan Hoskins
Doing research identifying. Okay here's potential issues was it'scollecting data here's what the data says um and being able to thenbring that back into because National stand technology. It's thedepartment of Commerce and so it's not just doing research forresearch Sake. It's and now how is this going to be used to helpimprove things and so that was a big learning experience there aswell.
13:34.86
firecodetech
So That's awesome. Well I wanted to I see how you know yourinterests in the commercial more commercial side of things haveinfluenced. So What you research Now. So That's very interesting Ilike hearing about that. Performance-based design and the differentyou know real-world application and you know looking back at mytime at Osu I can see you know some of the exercises that we did inlike you know our life safety class where we're really looking atthe building code and functionally going through those.
14:03.64
Bryan Hoskins
We.
14:12.16
firecodetech
Now I do those every day so I'm very thankful for that backgroundand when I got out into the workforce I could really see how thatset okay state grads apart from people who didn't and were justlooking at the code for the first time so I just wanted to.
14:25.73
Bryan Hoskins
You.
14:29.23
firecodetech
You know say thanks for that and then I could see that in yourteaching and I and I resonate with that as you're speaking about itnow. Um, but yeah.
14:34.87
Bryan Hoskins
Us to add on to that I'll just like to add that 1 thing that I'venoticed happens. Well a lot in my career is that I try to bringthat stuff into the classroom I've had students multiple many timeswrite me like six months after they graduate of. Yeah, when goingthrough your class I didn't understand why you expected us to knowall this and do all this at the time thought it was ridiculousagain, there's six months in their job. Don't change because itturns out this is what my employer expects so when the studentsgrumble about it. Don't listen to them because what you're doing isa big service to them to help them getting ready for what thecareer world is rather than just the academic side of things.
15:28.23
firecodetech
Yeah, definitely I think that there is a lot of great stuff in theI had you for fire dynamics and the the life safety course and justI mean the fire protection engineering exam is very heavilyweighted on that. Fire dynamics. It seems to me and that's a greatthing that we could talk about too is your ah recent experience inhelping with the sfp prep course but not to get too far off trackbut it just seems logical in the in the conversation topic.But.
15:52.65
Bryan Hoskins
Um.
15:59.45
Bryan Hoskins
Yeah.
16:04.34
firecodetech
It's all kind of placed together. You know you do it as apracticing engineer or at least a lot of people involved withperformance based design do and then it's also in the engineeringexam. So all these things kind of dovetail education experience andprofessional licensure.
16:20.63
Bryan Hoskins
Yeah, I'd say it's as so they all dovetail together. Um peoplesometimes try to think about everything being separate but inreality, everything's always interconnected and woven you can'tjust focus in on 1 thing. It's always see well this ties into thatand here's how everything interconnects and as you mentioned yeahI've been one of the things that I've done professionally is workwith the SfPEP exam prep course which is something I very muchenjoy because I Think. Talk a little bit more later about all myprofessional involvement but I think it's very important that oh atleast in my position I Realize how much the people before me havedone to set it up so where we have the profession that we do. And Ithink it's very important to give back because I and those againit's more label but part is I Went to back Demo's ability to giveback to the profession to have an even bigger impact than I couldby just being a consulting engineer for example or. Working in anHj's office or whatever it is have an opportunity to give backbecause I realize how much others they've given to me and the Pexam prep course is a good example of that because there are manymany people who go through that.
17:50.12
Bryan Hoskins
Um, and I will say the success rate of students who have taken thatcourse um, who've then gone on to pass pass rates much much higherthan the overall pass rate and it's a sizeable percentage of peoplethat are passing or basically taking that course. Because it doesget into all the different topics. Um, it's for those studentswho've been at Osu you've already covered a lot of those topics inyour classes and same thing goes to people who might have a degreefrom Maryland or Wpi or any of the other universities. But. As weall know that's not the majority of people in the field. Mostpeople are there because they've got a degree in something else inthose universities while we would love to be having more students.It's getting people to know about it before they come to college orin their first few years
18:33.12
firecodetech
Um, yeah.
18:45.90
Bryan Hoskins
Um, a lot of people don't discover the field until after they'vegraduated from college and so for those people who might have beena mechanical engineer by nature who so then they get hired by afirm that oh well, you can do air movement. So here start doingthis vent work for a. Smoke control system or okay, you know fluidsand pipes here you're gonna be doing sprinklers and so then theylearn their one specific area but not all the others and the areaI've been teaching though for the P exam Prep courses. Well both onpassive Fire protection. Um, which is one that. But even a lot ofpeople who've gone through some of those other programs in Osudon't have a deep knowledge base in um, what? well as to humanbehavior and have helped with the means of egress one as Well. Sovery much in just. Teaching people about okay here's what it meansand like I do in my classes I tend to focus more on why things arethe way they are in the codes and standards or how to approachproblems and less on these sort of well here memorize these rules.Um. The reason being is that and I know number of us who havetaught for the P Exam prep course we've had this conversation butis the intent of the course when you're teaching something likethat just a get ready for the test or is it about.
20:19.70
Bryan Hoskins
Giving people the knowledge base they need to be successful in thefield and I will sound that one while we are I said very goodsuccess rate and give people ready for the exam but there's also alot of emphasis on not just here here's the question learn how todo these particular skills and then you're done. It's. Reallytrying to make sure that the people who go through that have abetter understanding of what it means to be a fire protectionengineer um not just that they can do certain problems becausethere's other P Exam Prep course is out there that are much more ofthat you just want to learn how to do problems. They'll do that.Um.
20:47.73
firecodetech
Yeah, yeah.
20:56.27
Bryan Hoskins
But personally I prefer the approach that sfpe has taken which iswhy that's the one I'm been working with um which is much more thatholistic. Let's tell you what you need to know and in the processyou'll get better for the exam. But ultimately I want. People whograduate from Osu that have been in my classes or who take that pexam prep course or any other professional development course thatI teach is I want them to be able to go out and be a betterprofessional. Not well I put in my time got the checkbox and so nowit's time to move on.
21:34.11
firecodetech
Yeah I Know what you mean? Yeah,, That's a good point I like thesentiment of understanding the deeper meaning why and the more Iget into my professional career the more I'm impressed byprofessionals that don't just can't aren't just regurgitating code.You know, but they understand the deeper meaning and the intent andand have the ability to push back when the official is is notasking for something that is not you know with what the intent ofthe code What is asking and so. Think that's very important themore you get into the profession is to understand why and not justbe a code Jockey somebody who just you know is very lawyeristic Imean you have to be but um, you need both. But yeah.
22:22.29
Bryan Hoskins
Yeah, yeah, and I'll also add to that one especially at Osu whichthe reason why there I'm even more stressing why things are the waythey are done is I like to point out to students of one. The codesare always changing. Um, if you memorize all you're doing ismemorizing numbers or something like that. Well what if you knowthe say twenty eighteen edition of the Ibc and then you're on the21 edition of Nfpa one one. What's going on in those 2 but from alife safety standpoint the numbers change maybe well gray areasmight shift one way or the other. But what's going on. There is nodifferent love them. We get to the 2033 edit of the code I canguarantee you that there will be major differences from what thereare now not necessarily sure what.
23:06.85
firecodetech
And.
23:19.16
Bryan Hoskins
Those are going to be um, but we know that they're going to changeover time and if all that you ever do is memorize. Okay, here'swhat this one particular section is right now that doesn't give youthe flexibility when you're going to the different additions of thecode. Plus let's say you get. A project 1 time. That's overseas.Well you have to meet their code but you also have to consider froma life safety standpoint and what's going on there and are youactually meeting the temp because the intent of the codes. That'spretty much stable. We're not seeing Matt change. 1 addition to thenext. And so understanding those helps with performance-baseddesign helps when you end up in different jurisdictions. Um, andyeah, ultimately it's gonna make you a better professional if youunderstand why rather than simply relying on the what.
24:13.52
firecodetech
Yeah, that's a good point and you never know you know whetheryou're going to be working on a department of defense job or a V ajob or a fm you know, global criteria job where the criteria isgoing to shift so dramatically that.
24:23.93
Bryan Hoskins
Um, okay.
24:31.51
firecodetech
You know if you don't have your fundamentals rock solid Then you'rejust gonna just be totally unwired in your capability to design orfunction in that space So is very important and um, but yeah, solet's talk about.
24:40.70
Bryan Hoskins
Never.
24:47.77
firecodetech
Your role now at Osu and we've alluded to it several times already.But um, ah, you know how you're a professor now and a little bit ofbackground on the program at ok state of course go poke. So I'llalways like to um. Promote the program when I get a chance to.
25:06.91
Bryan Hoskins
Yeah, so oh Oklahoma State University has the oldest still activefire protection program in the nation. Um, so we've been around along time longer than any of the others and it was founded.Originally. Um, to well teach some of the basics of fire protectionthen as study changed and Osha came into existence the programadding the safety con component. Now we have some students whothink it's fire protection or safety. Um, but the facts you like toemphasis. It's fire protection and safety. Um a lot of what getsdone in the fire protection realm in the safety realm you're doinga lot of the same basic things. Um. And so it's easy to transitionfrom one to the other. They're not 2 distinct things. They'rereally in both cases you're trying to identify hazards trying toidentify mitigation strategies for those hazards and then it justcomes down to that specific application that you're applying it to.Um, but I will say the 1 thing that I think osu does better thanany of the other programs I am biased here, but it's very much.It's an engineering technology program and engineering technology.What.
26:38.74
firecodetech
Um, yeah.
26:41.70
Bryan Hoskins
Separates that is it's far more based on the hands on so in ourprogram majority of the classes that are in major have a labcomponent. So the students get to go actually touch feel experiencesee. Whaters arere talking about. They're not just reading about itin a book. Um, and I think that's a very valuable skill set to haveum, going back to said earlier of learn about smoke control beingable to go into buildings and see. Those dampers operating andseeing how the special inspection was going helped me understandthat far more than just reading about in a book does um and so Ithink that's one of the big advantages to the Osu program is thathands on applied. Oh part of the program. And not just pure theorynow as far as what I've taught there what I cover. Um, okay I'vejust said it's not it's fire and safety. That being said I tend toteach classes are a little bit more fire focused because that's. Igot my degree. Oh that's also I mean I'm a professional fireprotection and I'm a professional licensed fire protectionengineer. So yeah, that's my main area but as far as that goes ohmy first semester at Osu I was teaching.
28:11.19
Bryan Hoskins
Butker design and oh the at the time called structural design forfire and life safety where it covered passive fire protection andnfpa one one basically put the building code passive fireprotection nfpa one a one and human behavior all into onecourse.
28:29.61
firecodetech
Our sh*t.
28:30.65
Bryan Hoskins
Um, we have since split that up some because it was about too toomany important Concepts all being crammed into one course. Um soI've taught I said taught their own passive life safety Humanbehavior.
28:49.83
Bryan Hoskins
And building code all at once then the next semester added in humanfactors. Um, which okay, that's not fire protection but it'sclosely related to a lot of things I do which is looking at humanresponse and emergencies.
29:09.50
Bryan Hoskins
Um, and so it ties in very much directly with the research andagain life safety side that I've been interested in after thatbecause of some changes in faculty and other changes I taught ohand continue to teach The. So suppression detection course. Um thatcovers as again as's one as class we put probably too much in atfirst because it's the only class in the major on fire alarms. Theonly class in the major that covered special Hazards um and coveredthe start of Sprinkler systems.
29:46.58
Bryan Hoskins
All into one course. Um, now we split off that special Hazards moreinto an elective which I teach Um, that's also available as a gradcourse and that suppression detection class has shifted to beingstill the introduction to sprinkler systems as well as much more onfire alarms.
29:54.25
firecodetech
Um.
30:04.61
Bryan Hoskins
And just how codes and standards operate and work then I also asyou mentioned earlier top fire dynamics for a few years um as justas best fit for who was on faculty at the time be teaching thatI've taught oh smoke control.
30:24.36
Bryan Hoskins
Um, and oh yeah, so that's pretty much everything on the pe examprep course except for I haven't yet got fluids because of justother faculty have gotten that one. Um, but I've covered so much ofWhat's on the p exam but I also think it's important. Um forsomeone who's a professor to have taught that wide range because 1in order to understand if you can understand you you can teachsomething you have to understand it. Um, and. Because if you'retrying to teach and you don't understand it. It's going to be afailure for everyone at that point. Um and so having that is goodplus by having that bread. Of course that I've taught I mean andyou might remember this from some of the class but routinely pointout. And then in this class here's how this ties together and thenin this class. Oh so bringing in those connections which you knowbest when? okay, very taught that class. So okay, well in thatclass. You did this here's how that's relevant here because far toooften students. Um, which they learn better than this when they getolder but students a lot of times view the class that say okay Ihave to learn this stuff for the test and then I can immediatelyforget it and never have to know it again. Um, and they don't.
31:57.57
Bryan Hoskins
See all those interconnections but the as many of your listenersprobably know as you get into a real profession even if oh there'sone area that you primarily work in you don't just use the 1 classand that's it. You're having to pull in multiple things all throughit. Everything's interconnected and so by teaching all those thingsit makes it even easier for me to point out to the studentsdirectly. Okay, you covered that here. That's how this applieshere. So if you need to go back and review what was there thiswould be a good time to do it. To just tie in this entireexperience of learning. Um rather than viewing it as a bunch ofseparate individual steps.
32:43.64
firecodetech
Oh yeah, That's a great point because our profession is notoriousfor being just widespread I mean mechanical systems electricalsystems life safety and you're looking at building construction andpaci fire protection and So. You're you the whole profession isbased on being a jack of all trades. So.
33:09.42
Bryan Hoskins
Yeah, and I will say earlier I'd mentioned how I end up fireprotection. The one part I meant to add in there as well is to justecho what you said is one of the other things that that to ourconversation with the program had um that drew me in was that. Youhad to be f like we have to pull in all these different thingsbecause just personally I prefer having to okay I can use stufffrom Psychology Sociology and human Behavior. So You have tounderstand that you have to understand the mechanical civil. As butto a lot of other majors where you end up being much more siloedyou're not using as many different things and that required breathwas something that definitely peeled to me because it was yes,there's more to this field. More opportunities more career pathsthat are available than in some of the others.
34:09.67
firecodetech
That's a great point. Yeah, it's definitely a good career forsomebody who likes to be interested in in varied pursuits and veryengineering so varied engineering systems because. I Mean there'sjust so many different things you could look at especially I meanpeople get into product fire protection and Ul listings and ah fmapprovals I mean so you could be looking at fire and lie safetycharacteristics about anything in the built environment and thenalso and in the product market as Well. So if you.
34:23.49
Bryan Hoskins
Given.
34:39.67
Bryan Hoskins
And that's one of the big advantages of yeah and I would say that'salso one of the big advantages to the Osu program because it tiesin again, both bar protection and safety. We've had many alums thatthey start out going down one path.
34:42.57
firecodetech
If you want variety. It's integrate trade.
34:57.89
Bryan Hoskins
And then go down something completely different and then get ussomething else because of what opportunities come up and justhaving that Osu degree has opened up doors that a lot of the otherpeople just didn't have available to them because of how specialour program is and. All the different things that it touches on itreally gives someone many different options for where they wanttheir career to go.
35:27.66
firecodetech
There's a great point yet fire protection has awesome careeropportunity and I love that point also about that you said aboutthe hands on nature of the experience at Oklahoma state because asa professional you know. Everything looks good on paper and so youcan design something and think oh yeah, it looks great. It meetsall the code criteria. Well it doesn't fit in the room so you needto think about what does this physically look like and so I thinkthat's a very important distinction to make that. Physical andcorporeal manifestation of these fire and life safety features arejust as important as their code compliance. But so I wanted tobreak into a little bit of your expertise in.
36:12.79
Bryan Hoskins
Um.
36:21.65
firecodetech
Um, evacuation and sort of your research topics. But I know thatyou have a big interest in these areas and just I was reading someof your technical one of the. Papers or pieces of work that you putout I'm not as well versed in like how to analyze or readliterature this produce in Academia but I was trying and doing someresearch for the show. But I'd love to talk about? um.
37:00.70
firecodetech
Just evacuation and what you're researching now and get into yourprofessional expertise.
37:04.22
Bryan Hoskins
Okay, so I where I've taught everything but my and as far as againso that ging also I'll touch on that sort of Breadth of knowledgeof my senior research project. Was on passive fire protectionlooking at the effect of missing spray applied material on a steel.Trust my master thesis was on oh characterizing the flow from afoam nozzle. Um, both of those were based on the K which projectsare available which projects have funding sure I can do that. Um,but good experiences. But for the Ph D I knew I needed to dosomething that was going to be what I enjoy because if you're goingto torture of yourself to go through that process of getting a Ph Dwhich I've done it and I still think anyone who does it ispartially Insane. Um. There's no other real rational explanationthere? Um, but going through that I knew it had to be somethingthat I would enjoy because if you're spending that many years thatdiving that deep on a topic.
38:02.89
firecodetech
Um.
38:14.62
Bryan Hoskins
If it's not something that you truly have a passion about it's notgoing to end up Well um, and my passion I knew was in the area ofhuman behavior and fire. Um I said Psychology Oh in high schooltying that in.
38:21.00
firecodetech
Yeah.
38:31.93
Bryan Hoskins
And also life safety. Why am I in this field. Ultimately when Ithink about it's to help people. Um, it's what I want to do and notthat designing a sprinkler system isn't helping people. It is umbecause you're keeping them safe when there's a fire. But lookingat that human aspect and understanding how people behave andrespond um is something that was very much of a yes this issomething I need to be doing with my career. This is the avenue Iwant to go down. Um, and so my. Matt for my ph d um I spent a fewyears going through some stairwell building evacuations. Um,basically going frame by frame tracking what people were doingother people.
39:27.57
Bryan Hoskins
Again, going back to the insane part thought that I can sit thereday after day going frame by frame getting over 10000 data pointscollected from this. Um, that's to say they wouldn't have done itthemselves but gingling back to that hands on part of it. What Ifound most valuable about that. Um was going through that I got amuch better understanding and feel for what was going on therebecause if all that you have is numbers k engineers give menumbers. Give me. Oh. Excel or Spss Or Saft or one of those and Ican spit out stuff I can get answers. But in the research field. 1of the things that a lot of us. Well everyone knows is you can getnumbers. But. The job of the researcher is to understand what thosenumbers mean and to put them into practice. Um, and so one of the Imentioned this in my class a lot but with human behavior and firepretty much everything that we discover and new is not anythingthat.
40:24.79
firecodetech
Are a.
40:41.81
Bryan Hoskins
Is ever the Wow How is that true I would never have expected thatit's always see Yeah, that's how things are but yet we've beendesigning not with that for years and I'll get into some examplesof that um tuna. Well.
40:47.98
firecodetech
Here.
40:57.19
firecodetech
Um, and.
41:00.39
Bryan Hoskins
First of all I'll talk about this is predates me but 1 of the bigmyths in human behavior is myth of panic because there was actuallyfor years and years and years was you don't tell people what'sgoing on in a building when there's a fire because they'll start topanic. Panics irrational anti-social behavior. Basically someonestarts standing there frozen in fear or shoving other people allthe way and so on you can find lots of examples of this inhollywood clips. Um, actually one lab in by safety I play a bunchof clips from Tv and movies showing how. They portray evacuation offire and then find clips on like Youtube of how it actuallyresponds um in that. What do we see the fire alarm goes off ifpeople get up because that's just a drill I can just ignore this ifthey get up. They're walking orderly patiently letting other peoplepass them even when we look at oh case studies of real fires samething so there was no reason to keep that information from people.But that's what the industry thought was everyone's going to panic.Um. Or there's another example that again predates me. But um, thisone's 1 found by Prof Brian that again is not surprising but earlycode development and requirements were based on everyone would justwalk out the building and that's basically's a fluid particle andthat's how it would be.
42:37.54
Bryan Hoskins
He came up with this Oh when he studied the Runndo Park fire. Thisrevolutionary thing parents will go in after their children ifthey're left behind and they can't find them oh because parentswent back in for their children that burning building or otherpeople went in to rescue friends and other things rather than justthe back wing outside and. That was revolutionary at the time butyet no one's also shocked that wait a parent would go after theirkid. It's more the wait. Why would anyone think otherwise butthat's what the industry did at the time so in my dissertation Oneof the big findings I had there. Um that has.
43:06.59
firecodetech
Um, well.
43:15.64
Bryan Hoskins
Changed how oh we approach some things is since I said it's lookingat people back wing downstairs when you walk downstairs. You don'tgo straight make a ninety degree return go across make a ninetydegree turn and go down. It's more of an arc a semicircle typeshape around the landing I even remember talk to my advisor aboutthis and it see are you sure so then pull up the videos. Yep andwhen I bring it up in class now I'm yet to find it tune of no no Iwalk down and make those sharp angles. Okay, well let me phrase itI've then had students when we did things onstairs walk that waysimply to prove a point but it doesn't happen in real life and sothat's thing a lot of this st in human behavior and fire is justpointing that out. Um, also say 1 thing I've done a number of.Talks and talk about human behavior and fire is mentioned okay,imagine the scenario you are sitting in an airport a majormetropolitan airport. One of those hub airports and the fire alarmgoes off oh what are you going to do. And then play a video that'son Youtube of a fire at one of the major hub airports and was itshow and you can pull this up yourself from multiple differentairports multiple different places. Other things was it show.Everyone's sitting there. Oh no, 1 ne's trying to get back throughsecurity.
44:49.42
Bryan Hoskins
Um, to have to cross back through and every time I've talked topeople is that what you expect all but well all, but basically 1time have I had people say yeah, that's what I expected. The 1 timewas talking to a bunch of politicians. And they were shocked thatnot everyone listened to the directions. Um I guess politicianshave a different perspective on things but everyone else is theyeah that doesn't surprise me. That's what I'm used to That's why Iexpect the announcement comes on and people ignore it. And so thatthen gets into and I've done research in this area as well. Notjust the movement but also looking at how do we effectively getinformation to people what is needed to get them to go from thatjust sitting there to actually starting to evacuate and so. How isit that the notification process works getting time back into thathuman behavior and fire area.
45:52.91
firecodetech
Yeah,, That's very interesting I Definitely think Politicians havea different view of reality. But that's ah off topic. Um, that'sbut ah, another thing I was just thinking about and I didn it to.Provide this before this might be I don't know if you'll have ananswer for this but I had a question about like performance baseddesign versus a more prescriptive design and I know that the answeris probably it depends. But.
46:28.50
Bryan Hoskins
Nothing.
46:30.60
firecodetech
If you could give any insight to which one of these methods havegreater allowances for life safety or if there is a break evenpoint in building size or complexity where that might be.
46:49.39
Bryan Hoskins
So you're right? The answer is it depends. Um, it's actually it'sdifficult in that I don't think that there is a specific pointof.
46:51.26
firecodetech
That's a difficult.
47:02.92
Bryan Hoskins
Okay, when you get to this may square foot this many dollar figure.Whatever metric of sort of a cut and dry line. Um, because forexample, New Zealand at one point went to everything had to beperformance based and that did not work so well.
47:21.98
Bryan Hoskins
Um, but everything being prescriptive does not work. Well either.And really if we look at and I talk about this in life safety. Sothis is not really too far with stretch for a question I so ofalready know my answer in advance and actually talking about this.Just. Yesterday in class when we look at the prescriptive code. Theprescriptive code is in many ways a performance base code and hearme out on this when we look at the prescriptive code. Where donumbers like maximum travel distance come from number of exits comefrom. Well it's based on golden objectives that could set so nfpa 1one for example, is anyone not into most fire shall be kept safelong enough to evacuate relocate. Um, or defend in place and so youcan see that similarity to okay and you're doing performance spacedesign you have to come up with your goals and objectives andthat's very easily one that's going to be there anyone not intowith fire shall be kept safe.
48:35.34
Bryan Hoskins
And then if we look at the code how they okay theoretically wheredid numbers like travel distance. Oh come from. Well it's based ona typical building. We'll have this type of fuel loading in it andthat's why it's different for chakmancy in part. Um, so here's theexpected fuel loading here's the expected ceiling height. Ohtherefore the time until the smoke layer descends to where peopleare at should be about this much time we know the speed people walkat put in a safety factor there. And so with this setup everyonewill be out safely before the fire becomes too big now I saytheoretical. That's where it comes from because I think most of itsnumbers actually came from people at a conference room 1 timegoing. Okay, we need to come up with a number. Okay, that 1 looksgood. Let's see there. Um, but. In theory where it comes from itsat so like the ockment load factors where do they come from goingout studying a building counting the number of people getting thedimensions and adapting it for that. So the prescriptive code. It'svery good. For a building that's similar to that assumed buildingand many of our buildings are because you're dealing with okayseven foot 6 to ten foot ceiling heights not too much different.The commodities in them are gonna be about the same people in them.We can start to come up with those.
49:56.10
firecodetech
Um, and.
50:03.47
firecodetech
Naning.
50:09.32
Bryan Hoskins
Methods to approximate what it's going to be and as far as thehaving the committee then set what the minimum standard is saves alot of time and effort because if every project has to beperformance based.. That's a significant time investment. Um, forall the stakeholders involved and for a simple 3 story officebuilding where they're building 50 of them in the town type ofthing. Why go through each one of those projects and have to dothat when the prescriptive code works very well for that. It savestime effort money. So for a simple building that's sort of meetingwhat that stereotypical building sort of underlying theprescriptive descriptive codes is just do prescriptive but a numberof the numbers in the prescriptive code.
51:03.20
firecodetech
Um, appreciate that.
51:07.94
Bryan Hoskins
And mentioned in class yesterday they're arbitrary what I mean bythat is let's say I have 500 people in a room I can have two doorsout of there and it's perfectly acceptable by code perfectly safe Iput in 1 more person.
51:16.60
firecodetech
Um, yeah.
51:25.42
Bryan Hoskins
Point two percent change in the occupant load that one person I nowhave to put in a third exit door have I really changed the safetyin that building by changing the augment load by 0.2% that I nowhave to. Put in a third door. No 501 peoples meet just as safe asfive hundred with two exits there's not any study date or anything500 is round number and that's the number they got picked now I'mnot saying that 500 bad number I'm saying it's an arbitrary numberand that's the advantage to performance space design on 1 projectthat I worked on. Um while at europe there was a large casino. Um,that was being proposed to be built and to make it work.
52:05.63
firecodetech
Yeah.
52:21.51
Bryan Hoskins
They're gonna have to have some like 12 or 13 stairs to meet traveldistance requirements scattered throughout that floor. The ownerdid not like that idea why for security reasons putting in a lot ofstair shafts makes dead spaces and security becomes a problem alsojust the. Um, beyond that they wanted there so you can look acrossthe room and see the person winning way over there. Um, so that wayyou felt like you could be winning at your table so they wantedthat more open area and travel distance is meaningful for a normalbuilding.
52:43.55
firecodetech
My kids.
52:58.79
Bryan Hoskins
But let's think about against one of those major Las Vegas casinotype places you have a huge floor plan. So how long is it going totake the smoke to descend all the way down to where the people areat and the answer was a very long time I went to the fire modelingto. Determine what it was but it was in excess of 20 minutes um andso then if we can get everyone out of there by just putting in Ithink we had doing so like 4 5 6 stairs at the different outside ofthe building. It gets the owner what they want.
53:37.15
Bryan Hoskins
And we're gonna get everyone out of that building safe if there's afire I have no doubt about that in my mind. Um, why because thatbuilding's not a typical building the wide open floor plan made itdifferent and ultimately what's the goal of the fire protectionCommunity. Keep people safe in the event of a fire. So As long aswe can keep people safe in the event of a fire then well that'swhat matters and so that's what we need to be able to show and soand why prohibit the owner from doing something. If. It's going tobe safe to do it and so that's the advantage performance basedesign when the uniqueness of the architecture or materials beingused will still lead to the same level of safety as the base codeprovides. Then it should be our job as practicing engineers in thefield of life safety Fire protection. Um, but to make sure thatthose building owners can do the things that they want to do canuse their buildings the way they want to do but doing it in a safeway. And that's what performance spaces design and allows us to doand so I'm not gonna I say I'm not go set a specific dollar figureor a square footage or anything else. But if the prescriptive codedoes not meet the owner's desires then the performance based designbecomes an option.
55:12.44
Bryan Hoskins
To be able to allow them to do what it is. They want to do and ifthey just want to go prescriptive because that's goingnna be a lessexpensive option. That's their choice. Um, but if or if they havejust set in a more building and the prescriptive code works finethen great. Shown that it's safe enough. But for those uniquedesigns for those buildings where they want to do something alittle bit different then that's our job to make it so where theycan accomplish their goals but do it in a way that's safe.
55:34.36
firecodetech
Um, and.
55:48.11
firecodetech
I Appreciate that. That's a perspective on performance based designI don't think I've heard before I don't have as much experiencewith it. But I appreciate that sentiment In. You know how thatdiscretion call and really understanding the factors of what safetylevel that the prescriptive code provides and matching thatcalculated or performance-based design methods is very interestingbut.
56:25.41
firecodetech
Anyways, well I just want to wrap things up and say thank you fortalking Brian I could talk to you for another 2 hours probablyyou've been just a a walt of knowledge on and we didn't even get tospeak about your professional society involvement more and. Yourthoughts on the industry and where things are going but I want tobe mindful of what you got planned today and maybe we can have youon that in the future again to cover some of those topics.
56:51.17
Bryan Hoskins
Absolutely be happy to. It's great talking to and again you bringon a professor I get paid to talk for a living so always enjoytalking about the industry of the field and doing everything we canto help promote it continues to that growth.
57:08.57
firecodetech
Definitely well I appreciate it. You make it easy on me which Ienjoy of course but alrighty we'll we'll wrap it up.
57:12.10
Bryan Hoskins
Thank you.
